Extract from Birmingham City Battalions Book of Honour, page 1
” …. When the history of the Great War is read by succeeding generations few passages will be more inspiring than that which will tell of the readiness with which the young men of our country responded to the call of duty on the outbreak of hostilities. It was not their fault that they were not already trained, because they had been taught that to prepare for war was wrong, and responsible statesmen had failed to anticipate the need. As soon as the Germans invaded Belgium. Before it was generally realised that the vital interests of the British Empire were at stake in the European conflict, the recruiting offices were besieged with young men eager to play their part in resisting the aggressor.
In Birmingham three Territorial battalions were mobilised on August 4th, and their numbers were immediately brought up to full strength. The Lord Mayor of Birmingham at that time was Colonel Ernest Martineau, C.M.G., the Commanding Officer of the 6th Battalion of the Royal Warwickshire Regiment, and he left the city with his battalion. Consequently it devolved upon the Editor of this record, as Deputy Mayor, to co-operate with the military authorities in organising new methods of recruiting to meet an unprecedented emergency. The Town Hall, the Municipal Technical School and, Curzon Hall were placed at the disposal of the military authorities to receive the overflow from the regular recruiting offices.
When 8,000 men of all classes had been enlisted in the city it was suggested that special battalions should be formed of non-manual workers. The kindred idea of “pals” battalions appears to have occurred simultaneously to those engaged in recruiting in Liverpool and Manchester. In Birmingham, as in the two great towns of Lancashire, City Battalions were offered to the War Office during the last week of August. The scheme was introduced to the citizens by the (‘ Birmingham Daily Post” in a leading article on August 28th, and on the following morning a telegram was sent from the Lord Mayor’s Parlour to the Secretary of State for War as follows :-
Lord Kitchener of Khartoum,
War Office, Whitehall, London.In the absence of the Lord Mayor, who is on military duty, I offer, on behalf of the City of Birmingham, to raise and equip a battalion of young business men for service in His Majesty’s army, to be called the Birmingham Battalion. This is in addition to the ordinary recruits who have been enlisted in this city to the number of nearly 8,000.
W. H. BOWATER, Deputy Mayor.
The following reply was received on August 30th, 1914 :-
Deputy Mayor, Birmingham.
The battalion you offer would be most acceptable, and a valuable addition to His Majesty’s forces. I presume you mean a regular battalion on the usual terms of service. If so, it might form a battalion of the Royal Warwickshire Regiment to be designated the Birmingham Battalion, with a number. KITCHENER.
My Grandfather (William Morgan) served in the 15/R Warwicks from 23 Sept 1917,when the 15th Bn were disbanded he transfered to the 17th Bn.
It’s bit of a strange story as my Grandad joined up in 1908 & served with the 1st Kings Dragoon Guards,a cavalry regiment,from then until 1917. What I think may have happened is,I know he was wounded during the war & he wasn’t in the R Warwicks at the time,so must have been with the KDG.In 1917 the KDG were ordered back to the North West Frontier (Afganistan,how ironic!),maybe he was still recooperating & rather than send him after the KDG he was just allocated to another regiment,it does strike me as strange that he was put in an infantry regiment(albeit on cavalry pay) instead of another cavalry unit.His records such as survive don’t give any clues.He was born in Dorset and as far as I know had no connection at all with Birmingham.
Dear Mark,
I have looked at your grandfather’s medal index card and his records on ancestry which show he was first in the 1st Dragoon Guards [Regimental Number 1901], then in the 15/R War R [reg no 26621, & then in the 14 R War R, [reg no 32672], not the 17th as you state. I don’t know whether you appreciate how fortunate you are to have all those pages of military records still in existence. I think it was 60% were totally destroyed, & of the remainder some had very little still readable. You have a much greater amount than most even of the papers still in existence. Within these, apart from his postings etc you have a physical description, good conduct comments, several pieces handwritten by him. The address of presumably his parents as this remained the same from the time he joined up in 1908, until the end of the war. Once he is demoblised he moves to London, where you also have his address. He was moved into the RWR under regulation A.O.204/1916 which was a compulsry posting & which applied to other soldiers but so far I haven’t been able to find out in what situations this regulation was used. I do know that men were transferred between regiments if a particular regiment was very down in numbers due to casualties & the 15th RWR was involved in some of the worst battles in the Somme. If you are correct in saying that the Dragoons were being sent back to Afghanistan then in may be that other men in the regiment were also commanded to replace some troops on the front line. The medal index card states that he first entered a theatre of war in 1914 which is while he was still in the dragoons. I didn’t see any reference to him being hospitalised although I didn’t read every word. However he was given a wound stripe. When William was demobbed he was in the 14th & the reg no. he gives on correspondence at the time is that which he had in the 14th. He was eventually allowed to go on the reserve list for the dragoons, not the infantry as he had obviously asked for & been promeised at the time of his transfer to the RWR.
Best wishes,
Pauline
Hi Pauline,
You’re quite right I’m lucky to have so many documents of my Grandfathers war service,just a shame some are so difficult to read,shouldn’t moan I suppose! The KDG arrived in France on the 7th Nov 1914 thats how he just qualified for the 1914 Star.I think all his medals were named to the KDG. Alas they disappeared years ago,I’d love to locate them but I suspect my Grandmother probably threw them out after my Grandad died. I know the likelihood of a man being posted to his county regiment or regiment of his choice dwindled as the war went on but you’d think the powers that be could at least have posted him to another cavalry regiment,as fine a regiment s the R.Warwicks are! I have a nice photo of him with two friends (a sailor & an Aussie) he’s wearing a R.Warwicks cap badge. Very interesting website. Thanks
Mark
I was wondering if you have any records of an Edward Smith born 29/12/86 of 5 Brighton terrace, Mount street, Birmingham being a member of the Birmingham Pals.
Wife Lily Elizabeth. Thought to have joined the Pals in 1914.
Dear Graham,
I am sorry but I haven’t been able to find Edward Smith. There are no Smiths in my list of the Pals with only the one initial E (full names are not given). I have looked on Ancestry to see if his records have survived,but they do not seem to have done unfortunately. Do you happen to know if any of his children were born during the war? In such cases the regiment & regimental number of the father is usually given on the child’s birth certificate. I am sorry I have not been able to be of more help.
Pauline
Dear Pauline,
Our great grandfather Walter Wesley (or Westley ?) Peers was from Birmingham and served in the Warwickshire Regiment during WW1, I wonder was he in the Birmingham Battalion please and if so would it be possible to discover whereabouts he served ?
Best Regards
I am looking for information about the 16th Royal Warwickshire Regiment and a certain L. Sweetman. My grandmother was a Red Cross nurse in 1914/18 and she received many letters from men at the Front who had returned to battle after recovering from wounds. One of the men who sent her quite a number of letters was L. Sweetman. His letters were stamped ‘passed by the censor’ and were dated during most of 1918 ..
I would like to find out if he survived the war, if he received any medals and/or if he has a family I could get in touch with.
Many thanks
Diana Pritchard
Dear Diana,
Sorry to be so long replying. L Sweetman must have survived the war as he is not on the Commonwealth war graves list. As to whether he has any descendents, that is a trickier issue. Was there any address on the letters? If he was a Birmingham man, & I presume he was, I would have thought the most likely first source of information is the local paper. There is a Birmingham Mail & a Birmingham Post. There may also be a free paper. I don’t live near Birmingham so I am not sure. I would have thought it is the sort of story that a local paper would like to print & there may be someone reading it from the family or who knew the family.
I have looked on the WWI medal index site which is at http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/browse-refine.asp?CatID=10&searchType=browserefine&pagenumber=1&query=*&queryType=1 but cannot find an L Sweetman in the RWR. There are Sweetmans with an initial L somewhere in their name but not in the RWR. I also cannot find him in my list of Birmingham Pals although this is not necessarily exhaustive. Are there no hints in the letters as to his civilian life? I have also looked on Ancestry, also with no result, but this man obviously exists!
It might be worth contacting the regimental museum with your problem, & also the Imperial War Museum. It is a very personal story from the war & I think people will be interested in it. The museum is at http://www.warwickfusiliers.co.uk/. Apart from its own pages the IWM also has a facebook page.
I have also tried to find L Sweetman on the 1911 census but to no avail. I have wondered if the Sweetman wasn’t his real name. However, I still think the local Birmingham paper is the best bet to start with.
Best wishes for your research,
Pauline
I am researching Ernest James Haynes Pte, 14/1641 B Coy, R.Warwickshire Rgt who died aged 21 on 23 July 1916. Born France, was living Sparkhill, Birmingham. He was a Twin to William b1895. Son of William Henry and Sarah Annie Haynes of 28 Avenue Aubert, Vincennes, France. He is remembered on cwgc site. I have found a medal card but no service record. Is there any way to find out more? Thank you.
Dear Alison,
I have looked up Ernest in my list of Pals but he isn’t there so there will be no way of knowing which platoon etc he was in. On looking at his medal index card I see he must have enlisted later that the first Pals as he doesn’t receive the Star. This is born out by his relatively high regimental number. It is likely he wasn’t old enough. If Ernest’s service record hasn’t survived I am afraid there is little else you can do to find out any more about him. The only thing might be an entry in the relevant war diary on the day that he died. Even if this is noted, however, this may say no more than the fact of his death. The war diaries are in the National Archives in Kew. They have fact sheets online so that you can be prepared when you visit. I have a book on the 14th & Terry carter’s book on the Pals & if you would like to send me your postal address to my oersonal email & will send you copies of what is written on & around the day he died. pbarnes@familyandlocalhistory.com
My apologies – details for Ernest James Haynes should read 14/1651.
Iam keen on finding out more about my great uncle who i believe was awarded the M.C .He died on 23/04/17 at or around Atheis in france he was Company Sgt Major 8108? D.A.Farrington 11th Battalion Royal Warkshire Regiment . He is buried in the military cemetery POYNT DU JOUR in France, can you help me
Dear Richard,
I have looked at the army service records online but unfortunately Daniel Farrington’s records aren’t among those which survived WWII. I don’t have any records of him in the RWR as the 11th Batt was a regular army regiment. The museum may be able to help you. Their web address is http://www.warwickfusiliers.co.uk/
I have found his medal index card & am emailing a copy separately. I looked on the 1911 census as I thought it was possible he had been a soldier before the war. However, I couldn’t find either him or his parents. Going back through all the censuses to 1881, I finally found Daniel aged 0 in Aston. I tried again to follow him forwards this time but to no avail. The following is a good website for following where the different battalions were during the war. It gives no detail but it tells you which Division etc they were in & you can follow this to find out the areas they were fighting in.
Sorry I can’t help any more.
Best wishes,
Pauline
Hi Richard, I am the great grandson of Daniel farrington thru violet farrington my grandmother I remember visiting Beatrice in Whitehall road as a child. I have some good news. I have just purchased all of Daniel farringtons medals off a dealer who had his complete collection including his military cross and the medals from the boar war.
Hi Andrew, i am also the great grand/daughter of D A Farrington, grand/daughter of his eldest son also called daniel and daughter of his son albert. I remember violet, but not Austin or Albert. For many years my grandmother cissy had those medals, and i am pleased to say that i had the pleasure of seeing them and holding them. Our great/ grandfather still has 7 grandchildren from daniel junior still alive, and i would love if possible to show them a picture of the medals. I know that my nan had them for many years and never knew what happened to them. sadly she took that to her grave. I am so pleased that they are back with a family member. If you could send me a private picture of them, i would be truly grateful.
yours sincerely. theresa farrington. x
p.s Andrew i also have a lot of information and dates about our great grand/father and i will be happy to share this (if you do not already know) with you. x
Hi Andrew I’m also a farrington and daniel was my mom’s great grandad, there’s been a lot of disputes over what daniel was awarded, it would be great if you got in touch some how, my grandad was Donald farrington
My email address rachellovesfrankie10@gmail.com
Hi Pauline can you help me, I am trying to find some information about a soldier who name is on St Peters war memorial Harborne.
So far I found out when he died, rank and number,but what I like is find out how he was killed, as you can see our names are the same, I would love to find out more about his service ieservie record, I do hope you can hope, I have been in contact with the Royal Warwickshire fusiliers and they gave me some information, but would be most gratefull if you could help me,the information about him is listed below.
pte Fred Allen, Service 147, age 22, 14th blt Royal Warwickshire Regiment ( Birmingham Pals), died 23 July 1916 Battle of the Somme, no known grave.
Thank you, kind regards
Mar Field
Sorry I forgot to put his last name, is the same as mine, Field, thanks again,
Mark Field
I am researching Alfred John Aldridge, Pte 497 16th Batt, Royal Warwicks (3rd Birmingham). He was killed in action 27 Jul 1917.
I have no idea how he came to enlist in the Birmingham Pals – he was a young clerk from Newbury, Berks. If there is any information regarding Alfred I would love to hear it as I am attempting to write the stories behind all the names on the Newbury War Memorial.
Dear Phil,
I wonder how you know that Alfred was a clerk? I haven’t come across that information.
He was one of the early ones to join up to the Birmingham Pals as I can tell from his regimental number. He was in B company, V platoon, 16th RWR. He is listed in a book published in Birmingham to commemorate the Pals. If you send me your postal address to pbarnes@familyandlocalhistory.com I can send you a copy of the list & the platoon photo that goes with it. I also have a copy of Terry Carter’s book on the pals & could photocopy the section about the time when Alfred died.
I have looked to see whether his army record survives, but it doesn’t. His medal index card shows that he first entered a theatre of war on 21.11.15. I presume you have the information from the CWG. I have looked him up on the 1911 census and can’t find him. Fortunately his father has filled out his own census form wrongly and has written down children who have left home & although it has been crossed through you can see Alfred’s name there. I checked him in 1901 & he is with his family & it says he was born in Newbury. However, I can’t find him at all in 1911. I have also checked under John Aldridge as he is listed as J Aldridge in the Pals Book. I think he must have moved to Birmingham by 1914/15 at least & he will have joined up with lads from his workplace. In the Birmingham book some firms have paid to have their workers names listed if they joined up & there is an A Aldridge listed for Mitchell & Butler Brewery but there was at least one other Alfred Aldridge in the RWR as he was also killed in action. There is also Pte J Aldridge listed as working for W & T Avery Ltd. There were several Aldridges in the Birmingham Pals, it is not as uncommon a name as I thought, but you may get some information down the line which would point to Alfred working in one of these firms.
I also did a general search on Ancestry & There is someone who has entered his name on to the database. However there is very little information there so I don’t know if she is actually related to him. She has got his mother’s maiden name & his parents year of death, though, although no siblings listed. I have emailed her to see if she would be willing to contact you. Sometimes people don’t answer emails on ancestry & sometimes people go on it so rarely it may be a while before you get a reply, but I will let you know if I do.
Best wishes,
Pauline
Hi I was wondering if you could throw any more light on my Grandfather’s history, he was …… Biddle, James. J. .. Royal Warwickshire Regiment Regiment No: 305470 Rank: Private ..we have the three medals including the Mons Star which gives his number as 1706 and the other two which have 305470…Is there any significance in having two numbers? Do you have any other info on his service and locations where he might have been? Many Thanks Andrew Biddle
Dear Andrew,
I have a list of men who joined the Birmingham Pals and unfortunately James isn’t listed there which I find odd as the lower number would indicate that he joined early on. I have looked up his medal index card on Ancestry & originally found him listed as James J with the 305470 number, RWR. This lists him as having won 2 medals, but not the star. Because of this I then looked again and found a card for JJ Biddle with the 1706 number, also RWR. This card only had the star medal entitlement. It wouldn’t usually be possible to prove that these 2 men were indeed the same individual, but as you have the medals they obviously are. Men often went back to war after they had been invalided out. this was partly about young men being branded as cowards, & men themselves feeling guilty for being fortunate enough to be out of such awful conditions, but leaving men they had a very strong bond with, that they felt they had to go back. James must have been discharged from the army, wounds, sickness, or other disability as regards being fit to fight. He has then recovered sufficiently to join up again, maybe passing the medical this time because they were so short of men. It wasn’t until after WWI that men had army numbers. They were issued with a regimental number which is why James had a different number. In any case he probably didn’t tell them he had joined before. I have looked to see if his military record has survived, but unfortunately it hasn’t. There is a facility on ancestry to send a copy of a record by email & I will do that for you.
Best wishes,
Pauline
Sorry, Andrew,
Meant to add that as James’ first number was quite low, yet he isn’t in my Pals list, he is likely to have joined one of the regular regiments. It isn’t possible to say which. Terry Carter has written a comprehensive book on the pals & has a lot of information. He has posted to this site previously so you would be able to find his email address. He may have a record of your man. The other possibility is the regimental museum. http://www.warwickfusiliers.co.uk/
Pauline
Hi am looking for my grandad john davies born 1889 aston birmingham warwickshire.
Lived in cherrywood rd in 1901 census. Not on 1911 eleven census but believe at some time he went to Gallipoli , Palenstine a relative remembers seeing a photo of him with two other soldiers but we’d have no photos. Am fighting a losing battle try,ing to track him down the next appears in 1921/22 playing as. Reserve goalkeeper for birmingham city football club. We have the photo and medals from 1921/22. He then married a lily crump and lived in ? Back of 69 Tilton rd. we suspect he joined up sometime before 1911 as we can’t find him on the 1911 census . Please anyone help
Dear Robert,
It is so difficult to track down someone with a name like John Davies as there are just so many of them you have to have some further information. Do you have any idea which regiment he was in? Or any medals from WWI? I have looked at the WWI medal index, and the WWI pension & service records that survive, but I don’t think his records do survive as there is no john Davies there with a birthplace or place of residence in the Birmingham area.
I looked him up on the 1911 census and there is one John Davies living in Aston, as a boarder, unfortunately it doesn’t give an occupation for him. His age is stated as 20 which isn’t quite right, but often ages aren’t quite accurate on censuses. he is living at 18 court, Lovers Walk in Aston. This is only possibly your granddad, but worth bearing in mind.
Have you contacted the football club? They may have records going back that far, and until you check you won’t know how much information they have. The other possibility worth trying is the local paper. There is bound to be at least one local person who is really interested in the local football club. At some time there may have been something in the local paper or an old programme about your grandfather which may even include his WWI service. You say you have the photo from 1920/21 season. Birmingham central library has microfilms of old Birmingham Posts, and another local paper I have forgotten the name of. It would be worth looking at the sport pages of these for that season. The Birmingham Post also has a letters page and it might be worth writing a letter asking if anyone has any information.
Hope you find something to take you further along in your quest,
Very best wishes,
Pauline
Hi
Our village is currently researching our young men who are listed on our war memorial and served in WW1 – one is John Corbett Hiatt – RWR No 16331 and died on 14 Sept 1916 – it appears his war records do not survive. Another is Thomas Henry Sparkes who served and returned to live in Fillongley Warks – any additional information about these soldiers would be greatly welcomed!
Many thanks
Jo
Dear Jo,
Thomas Henry Sparkes, as you probably know from his medal index card, was involved in the war in 1914 which is before the Pals Regiments were formed. Your best bet to find out something about him would be the Regimental Museum I would think. Their website is at http://www.warwickfusiliers.co.uk/
If you can find out which Battalion he was in you could then follow the progress of that Battalion through the war on the following site http://www.1914-1918.net/warwicks.htm
You say you are researching names from the War Memorial, but I haven’t found any evidence that Thomas died.
John Corbett Hiatt was in the Birmingham, Pals but unfortunately not listed in my book which was compiled early on in the raising of these regiments. His regimental number would also indicate this. I have two books, Terry Carter’s book about the Pals, & one about the 15th RWR. If you send me your postal address to pbarnes@familyandlocalhistory.com, I could photocopy the pages relating to the time at which he died if you would like. The only downside to this is that he died of wounds & I have no way of knowing how long he survived before succumbing. The National Archives has The Regimental War diaries. If you haven’t already looked at these, they may mention his name as being a casualty, it would depend to a large extent probably how many men were lost on that particular day.
Please contact me again if you think I can help any further,
Pauline
I am researching Lance Corporal 29004, Jack Tustin 14th Battalion Royal Warwickshire Regiment who died on 13th September 1918 at a clearing station after being wounded in action.
Jack was born in Broadway in 1899 the son of Algernon and Emma Tustin. Apparently Jack enlisted in Worcester. Is it possible to find out when he enlisted?
Any information about Jack gratefully received as I am writing a biography about Jack to include in a book of commemoration ‘Broadway Remembers’.
Many thanks,
Debbie
Dear Debbie,
I have already replied to an email you sent me. You write on here that Jack Tustin died on 30th Sept 1018 but in fact it was 13th as you say in your email. I am puzzled as to the two regimental numbers you give. Where did you get the 29004 one?
You can see from the medal index card that Jack didn’t join up until at least 1916 as he didn’t receive a star. Based on the 1911 census he was only 14 at the outbreak of war. He wouldn’t have been 18 until 1918, although he could have lied & joined up before. He is listed as a private on his medal index form, that being his rank at the time he earned his medals. As he can only have been 18 in 1918 he did well to become a Lance Corporal before he died. Very sad that he died so late on, only just old enough to fight.
Although Jack was in a Pals Regiment when he died I haven’t a record of him as my book only lists those joining up originally. Terry Carter has written on this site previously, he may be able to tell you when Jack enlisted. Terry also posts on the Birmingham history forum.
I have Terry Carter’s book on the Birmingham Pals, & another book on the 14th. As Jack died in a clearing station the action he was wounded in must have been fairly near the time of his death. If you would like to send your postal address to pbarnes@familyandlocalhistory.com I will send you a copy from these books of the action the 14th were involved in around the time of his death if you don’t already have copies of them. Terry Carter’s book is now available very reasonably as a Kindle edition.
Best wishes,
Pauline
Jack Tustin’s service no. was 36116 and he died on 30th September 1918.
Pauline
My grandfather 2/Lt George Frederick ward was commissioned into the 16th RWR in Aug 1917. He went to Italy with them and then to France in March 1918. After that I cannot find anything about him in the regimental diaries. I know he fought until about September and then may have been injured. He was promoted Feb 1919 to Lt. He was commissioned into the 126 Baluchi regt in 1920. I have written a story of his life if you are interested. However he died in 1967 and we never knew him and have no photos and that is what I am really after a photo of C company officers 16 RWR after Aug 1917. Any ideas? Thanks
Dear James,
I am sorry but I have no photo of George Frederick Ward. The only photos I have were taken at the beginning. I don’t know if the Regimental Museum would have one as he was an officer. Their web address is http://www.warwickfusiliers.co.uk/
I had never heard of Baluchistan which I have now read a bit about which was interesting. Have you looked at the following site? http://www.new.fibis.org/ Families in British India. You may have looked already at the National Archives pages on searching for material on Officers in the Indian Army at http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/looking-for-person/indianarmy.htm
I would be very interested to read your story of his life. If it is small enough to email as an attachment please send it to pbarnes@familyandlocalhistory.com
Thank you.
I hope you find the photo you are looking for.
Pauline
Hi, I am seeking any information about a great uncle who served with the 16th Royal Warwickshires. His name was Cornelius White. He was killed 28th October 1917.
Dear Chris,
I think your uncle must be Cornelius Samuel White, who was in the RWR, but according to the Commonwealth War Graves Commission (CWGC) he was killed in action on 9th October 1917. This gives his Regimental number as 1801. His medal index card doesn’t say when he first entered a theatre of war, but this must have been after 1915 as he wasn’t awarded the Star medal. Unfortunately I only have platoon photos of men who signed up to the Pals Regiments in the beginning so I can’t help you in that respect. Ancestry has a record under ‘UK, Soldiers Died in the Great War’ which amplifies the CWGC information but I haven’t seen an original copy of this information, just their transcription. The date of death is again given as 9th October. The extra details are: place of birth, Charmouth, Devon; Residence, Ystradgynlais, Brecon; enlistment location, Birmingham.
You can find out the places Cornelius went with the 16th from the following site http://www.1914-1918.net/warwicks.htm
If you go down the page to find the Battalion it tells you which Division etc they were in & then you follow the Division etc. It gives a very good overview as to where they were.
I have a copy of Terry Carter’s book, ‘The Birmingham Pals’. If you haven’t seen a copy if you send me your postal address I will photocopy the part relating to the period when Cornelius died. Terry’s book is now on Kindle for a very reasonable price. It gives the best information & ‘feel’ for what the members of the Pals went through, with lots of information from individual soldiers so you might prefer to read that.
I have looked him up on the 1911 census & although I put Ystradgynlais in the search which brought up the record, the place he was living in is down as Pontadawe in Glamorgan, birthplace Dorset. He was listed as aged 14 and a servant to a grocer & his wife. He would therefore only have been 17 at the outbreak of war which would account for him enlisting later.
I wondered how he got up to Wales from Dorset at such a young age ( I get interested in these people I find out about!). In 1901 sadly he was in children’s home in Bristol aged 4, although it was a small children’s home in a street with family homes. His birthplace is given as Wooton Fitzpaine, Dorset. [Charmouth is the nearest larger settlement] He must have been sent by the Parish or the Home to Wales when he was old enough to work, but I wonder how he came to join up in Birmingham?
Hope this is useful for you,
Pauline
Pauline, i’ve just found this post, Cornelius and his brother Frederick White( 16/1782, 2nd Bn., Royal Warwickshire Regiment who died on 28 October 1917 Age 21
Foster son of Frank Claydon, of 20, Holland St., Sutton Coldfield, Birmingham.)
who was fostered out to a family in Sutton Coldfield enlisted together, he and his brother were sent to the orphanage in Bristol as young children when it was opened up to family’s with one surviving parent who couldn’t cope. I’ve been looking into this as they were my great uncles too. I believe their mother Amelia died either during or just after child birth and their father Jarvis just couldn’t manage as he had multiple other children at the same time one of which was my Great Grandfather. I would very much appreciate it if you could put me in touch with Chris Clark as it looks as if were looking for the same details and could be related.
Kind Regards
Pete Mooney.
Hello Pauline
Me and my wife Sam are doing a family tree and we have come a cross a war record of her great grandad William Proudman, Royal Warwickshire regiment his reg number 1365. We don’t no much about him and was wondering if you can find out anything about him. Thank matt & Sam Bennett
Dear Matt & Sam,
My apologies for taking so long to reply, what with one thing and another I wasn’t able to keep on top of the Birmingham Pals site.
William Proudman wasn’t in one of the Birmingham Pals regiments, he was in the regular army. I can tell this because on the bottom of his WWI medal index card it shows that he was awarded the Silver War Badge & the qualifying date given for that was 4.10.14, and this was before Kitchener began his recruitment drive.
Have you seen his medal index card? If not I will email you a copy as it is online. The silver war badge was given to men who had seen service but were rendered unfit to fight due to injury or illness contracted as a result of their service. Since there was such a feeling in the country at the time that any man who wasn’t in uniform was considered a coward & often the recipient of a white feather, the government issued the silver war badges so that people would know they had done their bit.
Unfortunately William’s military record is not one of those that survived the bombing of WWII. He has a very low regimental number and I wondered if this meant he had been in the army before the war. I looked him up on the 1911 to see if this might be so, but couldn’t find a William Proudman in Warwickshire. If he was a soldier then he wouldn’t necessarily be in his home area. On the other hand just because he was in the Warwicks doesn’t mean that he lived in Warwickshire. I have ancestors in Birmingham that didn’t join the Warwicks. Do you know where and when he was born? I thought Proudman was a rare name but there are a lot of William Proudmans on the 1911 census.
I don’t know if the regimental museum would be able to help. http://www.warwickfusiliers.co.uk/
William was unfortunate in that he was obviously badly wounded or his health badly impaired very early on in the war, but on the other hand he didn’t spend years in the trenches.
Please let me know if you haven’t a copy of the medal index card, & if you have any more information which might help me find out a bit more.
Best wishes,
Pauline
Hello
I am researching my Grandfather, Sergeant Alfred George Bromley, who served in the 5th or 6th Royal Warwickshire Regiment. He was born in 1883 and married Maria Baker in 1906. His regimental number was 240035. From his medal form, he received the victory Medal and British War Medal and T.Eff (A.O 236 of 1918). I have a photo of him & three of his mates peering out of a tent. Family information tells me that he was an ostler and that he was still in the TA after the war. Do you have any further information please?
Thank you
Peter Bennett
Dear Peter,
I am really sorry for the delay in replying, and unfortunately I don’t think there is much I can help you with. The 5th & 6th were battalions of the regular army & I don’t have information on them. I have looked at the pension & service records that are on line but unfortunately Alfred’s are not amongst those that survive. Since he was perhaps in the TA as well after the war it may be worth your contacting the museum, they may have some records. Their web address is http://www.warwickfusiliers.co.uk/
Best wishes,
Pauline
Hi Pauline.
I’m doing some work on my grandfather’s war experience. His name was (Samuel) Arthur Fisher. His sign up papers dated 24th Nov 1914 seem to suggest he joined the 16th Batallion of the Royal Warks (Reg No 33795, I think). He was a lorry driver so served in the ASC (his medals all have ASC on them, 020321). He has the 1914/15 pip so presumably didn’t ship out to france until 1915. He was wounded on 13April 1918 and discharged as unfit for military service on 5th Nov 1918.
Can you see him anywhere in your records?
Dear Kevin,
My apologies for such a delay in replying, a long period of poor health put me very behind. You may already have found out more information, but here is what I have been able to get. I have looked up his medal index card, and this states that he was first in a theatre of war on 13.12.14 when he shipped to France. It has him as a private in the RASC & then in the RWR it appears. It doesn’t say on the card which unit he was in to receive the medals. It also states that he was awarded the silver war badge which was given to men who through wounds or illness became unfit to fight. The badge was to show those who might otherwise regard a youngish man as a cowards, that in fact they had served their country. There is information on the SWB online. It is a possibility that this was another period of unfitness, or it could have been awarded in 1918. If he was wounded earlier on he could have eventually recovered enough to be accepted fit later on in the war (sometimes they weren’t that fit but men felt obligated to others to fight again, & the country was becoming short of soldiers). Often men did recover in time, & often they were then enlisted into a different regiment, depending on which had the greatest need at the time. I have looked on my list of the men in the Pals regiments but this is a list that was collated at the beginning of the drive for men following Kitchener’s call. Alfred isn’t in this list, but I didn’t expect him to be as he has too high a regimental number to make this likely. As he was shipped to France in 1914 it is not likely that he was in the RWR at that time so I think he would have been enlisted in that regiment either after whatever a problem which caused him to be awarded the SWB or merely because they happened to be getting very short of men at the time. You presumably haven’t got the SWB as you don’t mention it, which is a shame. They were also named on the back.
I am sending you a copy of the medal index card by separate email.
I have looked at the military records online but Alfred’s isn’t one of those that survive.
Hope this is of some help to you.
Best wishes,
Pauline
Hiya all, what a good read.
I too am looking for more information about my Great Granddad James Statham born 1878, Private 10699 Royal Warwickshire Regiment 15th Battalion. MIA Flanders 28.6.1918.
We are going out to Ypres in July to visit the memorial in Ploegsteert where he is commemorated. We would love to have any further information that is available. We don’t know how long he was in the RWR as he was 40yrs when he went missing, information about where he may have been before France, what he actually did. Any information available or locations to check would be much appreciated.
Rgds
Dear Jackie,
I am so sorry I wasn’t able to reply before you went to Flanders. I have had a bad bout of ill health which got me extremely behind.
I have looked at James’ medal index card which shows that he went out to the war after 1915 as he wasn’t awarded the Star. As he was an older man he wouldn’t have been expected to fight earlier on unless he had at some time been trained as a soldier. Unfortunately my only information on men in the Pals regiments when they were first formed. I will send you a copy of the index card in case you haven’t seen it. It will be on a separate email.
When he went missing James was involved in a big push to move the Germans back in an area known as the Nieppe Forest which is on the border of Belgium. Not all of the German army had realised that they were beginning to lose so this was an important operation. It was named Operation Borderland’. The regiment was still serving in France at the time but I can see why James would be remembered on a memorial in Flanders. I have been so long in replying that you may already know all this, but if you don’t have this information I have it in a book & can photocopy it for you if you send me your postal address.
To follow where James’ regiment was during his time in the war the best place to look is a site called the Long Long Trail. The following is the web address for the RWR http://www.1914-1918.net/warwicks.htm
You scroll down to find the 15th, then on the right it gives the Brigade & Division they were part of. You then follow that to find out where they were posted & which battles they were involved in.
Best wishes,
Pauline
Hi.
I have an audio recording of Francis Field and Vic Woolley (not sure of the correct spelling) – the interviewer says they served in the 2nd City of Birmingham Battalion of the Royal Warwickshire Regiment. The recording was made in 1983/4 and both men relate their experiences at the Battle of the Somme.
Dear Paul,
I am sorry not to get back to you sooner, I have been unwell for some time.
I am very interested in your comment, I have never come across anyone with a recording before. Are you related to either of these men? I know there were some interviews done at one time, but can’t at the moment remember by whom. Do you know who recorded them?
I would be really interested to know more.
Best wishes,
Pauline
Hi
I am looking for any information about George Stokes 11th battalion died 13th June 1916…..from Birmingham probaby Ladywood area. Regards
Hi
I am looking for any information about George Stokes 11th battalion died 13th August 1916…..from Birmingham probaby Ladywood area. Regards
Dear Janet,
My apologies or the time it has taken me to reply. You emailed twice about the same person, giving a different date of death. I am assuming the date of 13th Aug 1916 is the correct one as he is on the Commonwealth war graves list, which also says he was in the 11th battalion. I have looked up Georges Medal Index Card, & am sending you a copy by email in case you haven’t already seen it. He didn’t receive the Star which means that he joined a little later than some, being perhaps too old, too young, or in a protected occupation. I have recently answered a query about another man in the 11th. This enquiry was made by Colin Dennis Perry if you want to contact him. His relative also didn’t receive the star so it is possible they even joined at around the same time. As I said to Colin, the 11th was a regular regiment so unfortunately I don’t have any information about it. Colin’s query was a little different from yours, but if you have a look at my reply to him, I gave him some web addresses which you might find helpful.
Best wishes,
Pauline
I am part of a group researching all the men listed on the Sutton Coldfield War Memorial (plus those who were missed off)
A kind Sutton Coldfield older resident has lent me the actual original book. It is very fragile but still readable. I assume this is a valuable asset to have. I have not seen one for sale online.
Dear Yvonne,
I have got very behind with looking after the Birmingham Pals site, so have only just read your email. I think the Sutton Coldfield book is certainly a valuable asset to have. You may already have done this by now but I would think it worth asking someone at a museum about the best way the owner could keep this document in reasonable condition. Your group’s research will obviously contain the names of those in this book, but I wonder if anyone is able to copy out the contents to make sure a copy at least is preserved. Even if not all men were in it it is still a useful historical document. I sent a copy of my grandfather’s diary to the Imperial War Museum and if you haven’t already considered it I would think they would be pleased to have both a copy of your research and of the original document. Artefacts that are not on display are available for people to study.
I have no connection with Sutton Coldfield, but in our own researches we have been helped so much by information gathered by volunteers, it is such a valuable work you arte doing.
Best wishes
Pauline
Hi Pauline,
I wondered if you had access to any further information regarding my great grandfather Pt Frederick George Bench – I believe he was in the 14th battalion and died on 10/03/1917 (buried in Brown’s Road Cemetery in Festubert). I’ve no further information about his service with the RWR at all – any info (or any pointers to available sources) very gratefully received.
Dear David,
Your great grandfather’s regimental number was 22675 which is too high a number for him to be an original member of the Birmingham Pals and the information I have was collected at that early time. The fact that he joined later is confirmed by the fact that he didn’t receive the 14-15 Star. I have a book about the 14th & a copy of Terry Carter’s book about the Pals (Frederick is listed in the roll of honour in the back of this book). If you would like to send me your postal address to my personal email address I will photocopy the bits at around the time you G G Grandfather was killed. I am also emailing you the copy of his WWI medal index card.
Best wishes,
Pauline
Hi, I am looking for any further details you may have on 3558 Albert Edward Reeves? I have found that he served with the 2/6th and died from wounds on 20th July 1916 but wondered if there was any other detail available such as medals etc? Thanks
Dear Craig,
Sorry to be so long replying to your query. I have found Albert’s medal index card online which I will email to you separately. This card shows that he was awarded the British Medal & the Victory Medal, but not the 14-15 Star, so he was later going to war. He can’t have been there overlong before he was wounded poor man.
The fact that his regiment was the 2/6 means that it was a Territorial Regiment. He may have been in the Territorials before the war or that he joined the Territorials once war was declared. Some young men joined the Territorials originally because they were too young at the time to enlist, but many others who didn’t want to enlist in the Army proper as it were, joined the Territorials, & these regiments eventually went overseas in the same way as regular regiments. The following website will show you when the 2/6 Royal Warwicks went to war, & where they fought. The link I give you is for the Royal Warwicks page, & by going down you will find the info on the 2/6, & which Brigade & Division they were in. On the right of the page is the list of Divisions, & by following that link you will see where they fought.
http://www.1914-1918.net/warwicks.htm
I have checked the WWI service records online but Albert’s isn’t one of those that escaped the WWII bombing unfortunately.
As Albert’s wife is named on his Commonwealth War Grave entry I have been able to find him on the 1911 census which I will send to you separately. He had two children at the time.
Best wishes,
Pauline
I’m trying to find information on my grand father (who I’m named after)
Richard Baker
9326,
“A” Coy. 14th Bn.,
Royal Warwickshire Regiment,
who died on 29 March 1918 Age 36
He is buried in Padua Italy
Many thanks
Dear Richard,
I assumed when I saw that Richard had such a high regimental number, that he went into the war somewhat later than the original Birmingham Pals. However, when I looked at his WWI medal index card I saw that in fact he went out to France in 1915, & won all his medals while in the RWR. I have looked to see if his military record survives, but it doesn’t. I then looked him up in the transcription of “UK soldiers died in the Great War”. This is a series of large volumes, covering different parts of the country. Usually reference libraries have a copy of the volume relating to their area. I didn’t expect much, as most people I look up in there aren’t listed. I don’t know whether you had to pay, but certainly the families had to give information, & many did not. I was pleased to find him listed, & the answer to the question of the regimental number. This record is on Ancestry, but is only a transcription, I haven’t seen the original so cannot verify the accuracy. Below is a copy of that transcription. You will see that in fact he first joined the Worcesters. This wasn’t unusual, in fact one of my grandfather’s nephews served in the Worcesters.
Name:Richard Baker
Birth Place: Birmingham
Death Date: 29 Mar 1918
Death Place: France and Flanders
Enlistment Place: Birmingham
Rank: Private
Regiment: Royal Warwickshire Regiment
Battalion: 14th Battalion
Regimental Number: 9326
Type of Casualty: Died of wounds
Theatre of War: Western European Theatre
Comments: Formerly 17445, Worcs. Regt.
Ignore the fact that it says died in France & Flanders, for some reason military records seem to put this wherever they died.
I don’t have any information myself about Richard, but I do have 2 books about the 14th & could photocopy the parts around the time that Richard died if you send me your postal address to my personal email address. The only thing is that as he died of wounds it isn’t possible to know how long he lived after those wounds were incurred. It wouldn’t have been months, or even weeks I wouldn’t have thought, as I would think in that instance they would have sent him back to Britain.
I have looked Richard up on the medal index under the Worcs number but as expected he isn’t listed there as he gained all his medals in the RWR. The regimental number would be higher in the Worcs as he would have been part of a regular regiment.
The following is the website for the regimental museum, I don’t know whether they would have any records, especially since he cannot have been there that long. He must already have been in the RWR when he went to France.
Best wishes,
Pauline
Dear Pauline,
Fascinating site. I’m looking for some information on my paternal Grandfather, Charles William Edgerton, who had signed as a pre war Territorial on 13 January 1911 and enlisted at Thorp Street and went to France in March 1915 along with the Royal Warwickshires. His medal record shows that he was discharged in January 1916 thus avoiding much of the horror that took place after. Any advice would be much appreciated Pauline.
Best Regards
Paul
Dear Paul,
I presume from your query that you have seen the record under your grandfather’s name in the WWI pension records as you know he signed up to the Territorials in 1911. It is rare to find a record still available as most were lost. This record also lists his wife’s name & their address, which is another bonus. Oddly, although this is listed in the pension records it is in fact his service record which says he was discharged in 1916 as the termination of his further period of engagement. It says he was discharged under section XXI of the Kings Regulations 392. A list of these can be found on http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=6812
It also says that he was in the 1/6 battalion of the RWR. The Territorial battalions always have these dual numbers. To find out where he was during the time he was in France the following is the best website. You scroll down to the Battalion, that tells you which Division that Battalion was in & on the right of that page near the top is a list of Divisions which you can click on. http://www.1914-1918.net/warwicks.htm
Unfortunately, as he wasn’t in a pals regiment I don’t have any further information on Charles, but you might be interested in the Museum since he was in the Territorials for so long. http://www.warwickfusiliers.co.uk/
I’m sorry I can’t be of any more help.
Best wishes, Pauline
My grandfather was gassed in 1916. He was in the Royal Warwickshire Regiment (City of Birmingham). His name was francis rollason and I think his army number was 1397. How do I find the battalion he served with?
Grateful for any help.
Dear Jonathan,
Sorry to be some time answering your query. I’m afraid I haven’t been able to get very far with this. I have looked up his Medal Index Card which confirms that he was in the RWR but these don’t give battalion numbers. I have looked to see if his army record survived the WWII bombing, but unfortunately not. You are right in that his army number was 1397. I am presuming you got this from his medal index card & that your grandfather was Francis J W Rollason. I don’t have a record for him in my list of Birmingham Pals, but he could have joined a little later, after this list was compiled, or could unfortunately just have got missed off the list.I have just discovered that Ancestry also have the actual medal rolls online for him (I don’t know if they have all these records online, I will have to check that out sometime). Anyway, this says that he was in the 15th RWR which was the 2nd Birmingham or Pals Regiment. While searching the records list for the 15th I have found a man with the number 1394, so Francis must have joined at that sort of time. It might be worth your while contacting Terry Carter who has written a very good book on the Birmingham Pals. He has a lot of information not in the book, including enlistment dates which he has compiled from the local paper. He has in the past posted on this site so I can give you his email address, birminghampal@hotmail.com
Terry’s book is Birmingham Pals: History of the 14th, 15th and 16th (Service) Battalions of the Royal Warwickshire Regiment and is now also available in a kindle edition.
To find out where the 15th were during the war the following site is best. http://www.1914-1918.net/warwicks.htm
Scroll down to the 15th, this gives the Division they were in, & on the top right of the page you can click the Division.
I will send by separate email the copy of the medal index roll which gives his battalion number.
Best wishes,
Pauline
I was wondering if you have any record of either my grandfather William Holtom or my great Uncle Walter Holtom. Both from Birmingham and in the Warwickshire’s I believe although I don’t think they joined together. William joined first as far as I know. Walter I have been told was killed at the battle of High Wood aged about 19. William survived and went on a raid into German trenches and won a commendation for killing a German officer and stabbing him through the chest with his own spiked helmet. Apparently the story was taken up by the Birmingham papers and he was known as Spike Holtom thereafter. I would love to know if the story is true but haven’t found anything as yet. Also apparently William visited and tried to get his brother transferred to his regiment so that he could try to look out for him when he was on leave suffering from trench foot. But Walter refused as he wanted to be with his mates. He was sent straight to High wood where he died. Any info you have would be greatley appreciated Many thanks Maria
Dear Maria,
Was William ‘William R’ Holton? William R Holtom was in the RWR, and I will continue to look this man up, assuming he is the one for now. He was an acting corporal, & entered the war after 1915 as he wasn’t awarded the star. He was in the 1/5 Battalion, which was a Territorial Bn. If this is your grandfather let me know & I will email you copies of the medal index card, & medal roll, & info on how to find out where he was serving.
I can’t find any record of a Walter Holtom on the Commonwealth War Graves site; I have also tried variations on his surname in case it has been mis-spelt. I have found a man listed on there as Walter Holton – unfortunately it doesn’t give his age, but it says he died on 23rd July 1916, which was during the battle of High Wood. This same man is the only one who comes up in a search as Walter Holtom in the WWI medal index cards. The only issue with this is that this man was in the Duke of Conrnwalls Light Infantry. This is not necessarily wrong for someone who was from Birmingham as regiments did recruit outside their area, although I don’t know if this regiment did recruit in the Midlands. The other possibility is that Walter had another first name but was called Walter in the family. This man also went to war after 1915.
Do get back to me & I will send you further information if these are indeed the right men, or if you have other information that means we have to look in a different direction, let me know that too.
Best wishes,
Pauline
Hello Pauline,
I am researching 2 Lt. Gerald Curle 14 Bn Warks Regt. I have his MIC which shows he entered the theatre of war in France July 1916. Also he was Capt and Adjt in the DLI.
Do you have any information on him please.
Thanks
Dear Graham,
Firstly, my apologies for taking so long to reply. I now have good and bad news. I have him listed in my book of the Birmingham City Battalions as a 2nd Lt in the 14th. This was a book paid for by subscription as a tribute to the men. There are also group photos in it. Unfortunately Gerald is listed as not being present when the photo was taken. If you would like a copy of the list with him in, & possibly a copy of the photo with most of his fellow officers in, please send your postal address to my personal email. I have also looked him up on the medal rolls themselves & will send a copy to you by separate email, for information, as it doesn’t really tell you anything you didn’t already know.
There is a site called the Long Long Trail, which gives you the places particular divisions were involved in. The following is the link for the RWR pages. If you scroll down to the 14th, it gives you some info, + the division they were in. Top right on that page is the list of divisions & from there you can see where that division went. I presume you don’t know when he transferred to the Durham LI, but you would at least know where he started. http://www.1914-1918.net/warwicks.htm
I have never come across the surname Curle before, I would think it is relatively rare, but there are other Curles in the 14th so I thought they might be related. There is also G Curle listed as a Sergeant in the list of non-combatants, regimental number 249, although he also seems to be listed as A Co III Platoon sergeant, without a number, unless this is a different man. In this same platoon there is a Corporal A C Curle, with the same regimental number as the Sgt I have just listed. The platoon Sergeants aren’t given numbers in this book, although sergeants within the platoon are. I wonder if G & A C Curle are related & he was given his brother’s number. It is all very odd. I couldn’t find an A C Curle in the MIC index, but did find an Albert Curle who was in the Durham LI. The medal rolls for the DLI don’t seem to be online.
I’m sorry not to be of more help to you. If any of the other men are from your family I can email you the rest of the records, & photocopy the other Curle entries in the Birmingham Battalions book.
I’m afraid I don’t have access to the War Diaries, you would have to go to Kew. As your man was an officer he is likely to be mentioned.
The best place to read about the 14th is in Terry Carter’s book, the Birmingham Pals which is also available on Kindle.
Best wishes,
Pauline
ps. I have found him on the 1911 census and know his family history. Do you have access to 14 Bn war diaries or any other mil info on Gerald himself.
Regards
I am after information re my Grandad whose name is Charles Read 998 Sgt 16th Batallion
He joined up in Moseley was mentioned in despatches
Anything you can tell me would be appreciated
Regards
Stuart Read
Dear Stuart,
I have had a look at his WWI medal index card on which it also says he is entitled to the emblem. I will send you a copy of this by email. I have a book which was published by public subscription to honour the men in the Pals Battalions. Charles was in D Company, XV Platoon. There is a photo of each platoon in this book, although it is not always possible for people to pick out their relative from this photo. I can’t email this as it is too large & the system doesn’t take it, but if you send me your postal address to my personal email, I will send you a copy of the list he appears in & the photo.
The medal rolls themselves, in which Charles appears are also online & I will also send you those. On the one for the star it states that his current position is class Z. This means that he was discharged from the army at the end of the war, but could be called up again for any future conflict. On the roll for the star he is listed as private, as he was when he enlisted, but on the roll for the other two medals he is listed as sergeant, so he was made up to sgt some time after 1915, or during 1915. He must have had good leadership qualities.
If you were able sometime to go to the National Archives in Kew & look through the Regimental war diaries his mention in despatches would be recorded in there, although if you didn’t know the approximate date it could take a while.
If you look on the following website it shows you a picture of the emblem Charles would have had to show he was mentioned in despatches. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mentioned_in_dispatches
Best wishes,
Pauline
I am not sure if you can help me with my query. My father was in the Royal Warwicks in Mesopotamia, serving near Mosul. I have very little other information except some photographs he took of his brothers and other friends serving with him. I do not know his service number or which battalian he served in. He lived in Birmingham at the time and fudged his age so that he could enlist with his brothers, I would guess he signed on in 1914 and was in the Birmingham groups. Other than that I have no idea where he served. Was he France and went to the near East in 1917/1918?
There is little information of any action by the Warwicks in Mesopotamia. If you have any clues where to look I would be very grateful.
Thank you Len Clarke
Dear Len,
I am sorry to be so long answering your query.
Unfortunately you forgot to let tell me your father’s name. If you email me with it I will look up to see what I can find straight away.
Best wishes,
Pauline
Dear Pauline,
I am looking for any information you may have on L/Cpl Michael Minchella 34209. 16th Batt RWR, who has a grave in Tannay British Cemetery? He was originally in the 11th Hussars but that’s all we’ve found. Did he sign up with the 16th or was he brought in to replenish numbers? Died of wounds/ in action 26th April 1918, so if with battalion, would have recently returned from Italy.
My friends son is on a history trip to the battlefields in May 2015 and he is only now aware that his great, great uncle died in the war. Trying to get the school to slightly change their itinerary and visit this CWG Cemetery.
Any other information would be gratefully received.
kind regards, Jamie
Dear Jamie,
I presume you have your information from the CWGC site. I have also looked up his medal index card, & the medal roll itself relating to this, which are both online. I will email you a copy of both. As with most of them, the Medal Roll itself doesn’t tell you anything you didn’t know before, but it adds to completeness of record. I have also found online an entry for him in the UK soldiers died in the great war. This was a series of books published on an area basis which had entries for soldiers who died. It isn’t a comprehensive list, & most men I am asked to look into do not appear in it. I presume this is because as families must have contributed the information, (I don’t know if they had to pay), they would be more interested in passing information about the death to their heirs, & so wouldn’t be asking now. There is usually a copy of the relevant volume in the local reference library. I am sending you a copy of what I have read online, but this is only a transcription, I can’t verify its accuracy.
Michael’s MIC shows that he didn’t enter the war until after 1915 as he wasn’t awarded the star. He is listed as a private in the hussars. Unfortunately it doesn’t give a rank for him in the RWR so I can’t tell if he was transferred to the RWR as a private & was then promoted, or whether he was transferred after becoming a L Cpl. It is possible that one of the museums may have that information. It was always possible that he served in the Hussars before the war, but as both regiments feature on his MIC he must have fought originally as a Hussar. There is a site called the Long Long Trail which is very comprehensive in showing where the various regiments were during the war. As you don’t know when he transferred (& I think it most likely it was because the RWR was short of men as you suggest), it will be difficult to know exactly where he was during the middle of his service unless you can get this information from the museums. I have wondered before when men from a mounted regiment are transferred to an infantry regiment, whether this was prompted by the loss of their horse, by their own choice or because there wasn’t another animal available. I have checked online & unfortunately his military record hasn’t survived.
The page for the hussars on the above website is http://www.1914-1918.net/hussars.htm & that for the Warwicks is http://www.1914-1918.net/warwicks.htm You scroll down to the battalion, this tells you which division they were in & top right on the page is the list of divisions which you can follow to get the itinerary.
The RWR museum is at http://www.warwickfusiliers.co.uk/ & that of the hussars is at http://www.armymuseums.org.uk/museums/0000000057-HorsePower-The-Museum-of-The-King-s-Royal-Hussars-in-Winchester.htm
I have a copy of Terry Carter’s book on the Birmingham Pals which doesn’t have a detailed report of the fighting at around the time Michael died, but if you would like to send your postal address to my personal email I will send you a copy of the period around this time. They were fighting in the Nieppe Forest (a bit of a misnomer by this time) & was part of a big last push against the Germans.
The Battalion war diary is in the National Archives in Kew
if you are able to get there. As you know his date of death you would have a place to start to look through & see if he is mentioned, or the engagement which caused his death.
Best wishes,
Pauline
Wondered if you could find a relative of mine who was killed on the 3rd September 1916 his name was James Meredith of the 15th Bn Royal Warwickshire his service numberwas 253. I am trying to find his service record
Dear John
I presume you have James’ death details from the Commonwealth War Graves site. I have found his Medal Index Card, His entry in the medal rolls themselves, all of which are online, & I will send you copies of these by email. On the medal index card it gives the date he first arrived in France. It also states that he was a Lance Corporal & later rose to Corporal. It also says that his medals were returned. The 1743 Kings regulations it quotes merely refer to the fact that unclaimed or returned medals were kept for 10 years & then disposed of. I don’t think it says, but presumably they were recycled. It is most likely, I think, that the family would have returned the medals. They would not have been issued before he died. I can imagine some families feeling they didn’t want them. On the medal roll for the victory & war medals it also states that James was in the 1/5 Bn which was a Territorial Regiment, so he must have been in the Territorials before joining the 15th. That must have been early on in the war, or even before the war because his regimental number for the 15th is quite low so he must have been an early volunteer for that. If you look on the following website & scroll down to the 15th it tells you when the Bn was formed, & which army division it was part of. At the top right of the page you can click on that division & it tells you where they were during the war. http://www.1914-1918.net/warwicks.htm
I have also found an entry for James in the book, UK soldiers died in the great war. This was published by HMSO in 1921, a fact that I have just discovered, having mixed it up in my mind with a similar publication that wasn’t official. This information from ‘UK soldiers died in the great war’ is on Ancestry & is a transcription, so I haven’t seen the original. That I am also sending you by email. This does give his area of birth which would be useful if you ever want to find out more about him.
The only thing not available is his service record which must have been among the majority that were lost during WWII bombing.
I have a copy of a book about the Birmingham City Battalions & that says that he was in B Company of the 15th, Platoon V. There is also a copy of a platoon photo. This photo is reasonably clear (they vary considerably within the book). If you know what James looked like you should be able to recognise him, especially as he was a Lance CPL at the time. If you send me your postal address to my personal email I will copy the list with his name in it & the photo. I also have a copy of a book on the 15th & a copy of Terry Carter’s book on the Pals. I can also copy the parts relating to the time that James was killed.
Best wishes,
Pauline
Dear Pauline, It would seem that you are very clued up on the history of the Warwickshire Regiment. My wife Susan and myself are research hing the records of her grandfather Private Roland M Richardson number 1000 who was in the 16th battalion Royal Warwickshire regiment. I have found his medal card on ancestry and indeed we have the 3 medals. We would like to find his service record ie, where he fought in France or other location during his service, we believe he was in for the duration, he did incur shrapnel wounds of which in later life was a big factor to his death. Any info or guidance would be greatly appreciated. It is good there is a forum for this subject. Well Done.
Regards
Roger and Sue Champkin
Dear Roger and Sue,
I have looked up Roland’s MIC, which among other things, shows that he was awarded the Silver War Badge (SWB). This was given to men who had served but had to leave for some reason so they weren’t shunned. There is now quite a bit of info on the SWB online.
Rolands entry in the actual medal rolls, and his entry on the SWB list are also now online & I am sending you these by email. The SWB one notes the initial is for ‘Moore’, and also says he enlisted on 28.9.14, & was given the SWB when he was discharged on 24.10.18 as a result of wounds, aged 23. His entry on the Star roll also records the discharge.
His military record must be one of those destroyed in WWII.
I have a book produced to honour the Pals, containing the names of men who signed up at this time. There is a photo of each platoon. Roland was in D Co., Plat XVI. This platoon have one of the clearer photos in the book, partly because quite a few of them weren’t there at the time. Fortunately Roland was & if you know what he looks like you should be able to find him. If you send me your postal address to my personal email I will send you a photocopy of the platoon list & photo.
Best wishes,
Pauline
Hello,
I am trying to find some information re my Great Uncle, Private 16/1434 Frederick John Phillips of 16th Battalion. I know he fought at Longueval, Delville Wood and Falfamont Farm. I have managed to find out quite a lot about him & have his medals. He died near La Bassee on 09/11/16 & is buried at Le Touret Military Cemetary but I would like to find more detail of these last few days & where the 16th were fighting.
I have the last letter he wrote which is printed in ‘Birmingham Pals’ by Terry Carter. I am planning a visit on 30/03/15 & it would be nice if I could find out this last piece of information.
Thank you for your Time
Rich P
Dear Richard,
I think you have most of the information I would be able to give you. I don’t have any other book except Terry Carter’s which would give an account of those days. It would only be the Regimental Diaries which are in the National Archives in Kew. A general overview is on the Long Long Trail website. This gives you the Division which each regiment was in & then on the top right of the page is the list of Divisions which in turn tells you where they were at any particular time. The RWR page is at
http://www.1914-1918.net/warwicks.htm
I do have more information on the men who enlisted in the first instance into the Pals Regiments, but unfortunately he isn’t listed there. Having now looked ujp his mwdal index card I find he wasn’t awarded the Star which means that he joined a bit later on.
Sorry I have not been much help. As I said, I think the only place you will get more info is the TNA in Kew.
Best wishes,
Pauline
Sorry, I’m Going Mad! It should read Frederick John Hughes!!!
apologies
Rich P
Hi I wonder if you can help !! I’ve found pensioner discharge/medical record from my great grandfather who served in the warwickshire regiment his number is 7540, it says under enlistment as 1900 AND 1913 ?!? DishchRged in 1917 disabled .
His name was Samuel lines . I’ve also purchased the medals documents from archives and found another article that states he was part of 3rd warwickshire battalion and recieved the star and 2 other medals and was injured 3 times before being discharged which adds up but seems strange as his enrolement list is earlier than the pals ??
Can you please help
Regards
Lee
Hi, im researching the Birmingham battalions for my a level history project. Can i ask how many casulties there were at the end of ww1 and how many survived? Thanks.
Dear Website Owner,
You might wish to add my Uncle’s name and details to your excellent Pals database, because as he was discharged with a weak heart during training at Chisledon Camp Wilts on 14.3.1916, serving with the 17th (Reserve) Battalion RWR (this battalion was made up of the depot companies of the other three Pals battalions) his name does not appear in any of the Pals literature. He is 16/1892 Pte Edward Vaughan James LYNDALE-CALDWELL, born Ladywood February 24th 1896. Edward didn’t give up and on 21.12.1917 enlisted in the RFC for pilot training, but was sadly killed in a flying accident with No14 Depot Training Squadron, Lakedown, Wiltshire, when on 6.9.1918 the Avro 540K in formation next to him collided as it turned, killing Edward and his instructor (Capt. Walter Gordon Cope) in the subsequent crash. I would be most grateful if Edward could be added to your Pals database of names. As an aside your visitors might like to know about the CD available from Midlands Historical Data for GBP20.00 at http://www.midlandshistoricaldata.org/ titled “Birmingham in World War I”, which combines 5 historical books together with group photographs of each platoon of the Pals battalions before departing overseas. The 5 books on the CD are “Birmingham Battalions Book of Honour” (which lists those that served, not just those that died) 1st B’ham Bn in the Gt. War”; 2nd B’ham Bn in the Gt. War”; B’ham Territorial Units of the RAMC” & Birmingham and the Great War”. Regards Graham Caldwell, Melbourne Australia (Birmingham born Expat).
Hello, I am looking for more information on my Great Uncle, Thomas Varney. Royal Warwickshire Regiment, 2nd battlion Private, #1885. Died 7th November 1914. I was wondering if he would have been one of the PALS and any other information we can find out would be greatly appreciated. We have planned a trip to Ypes to see his memorial on Menn Gate.
Hello, I am looking for more information on my Great Uncle, Thomas Varney. Royal Warwickshire Regiment, 2nd battlion Private, #1885. Died 7th November 1914. I was wondering if he would have been one of the PALS and any other information we can find out would be greatly appreciated. We have planned a trip to Ypes to see his memorial on Menn Gate.
Thank you for your time.
My father, John Theodore Trevor Webster then living in Handsworth, volunteered for service in August 1914. I have his lapel badge “GR / BIRMINGHAM BATTALION 1914”. I also have a newspaper photograph marked “1st BBRW Regt Church Parade Sept 1914” – which includes him in front file immediately behind the Sergeant. I understand that about mid-1915 (because he was a mechanical engineer by profession), he was transferred to the Royal Engineers and posted to HM Factory Gretna (munitions plant) due to the very urgent “Shells Crisis” on the Western Front in France. Can you confirm this from your Regimental records since my Dad`s army records were apparently lost due to enemy action in 1940 (burnt). Your assistance would be much appreciated.
Hi trying to find out about my gt granddad walter hyde from Birmingham golden hillock rd he alwaya told me he was bayoneted in the arm while in the royal Warwickshire regiment either 2 0r 16 hope you can help as we would like to get his medals to go on display with mine hope you can help .his army discharge have been lost my his wife before thet died
Hi trying to find out about my gt granddad walter hyde from Birmingham golden hillock rd he alwaya told me he was bayoneted in the arm while in the royal Warwickshire regiment either 2 0r 16 hope you can help as we would like to get his medals to go on display with mine hope you can help .his army discharge papers have been lost by his wife before thet died
Im trying to find a photo of Benjamin Henry Mitchell for my family tree who was at first, in the 1st regiment and then Kitchener’s regiment of the royal Warwick’s I think the 11th regiment. His death was on the 12th but not found until the 13th and so its registered on the 13th august 1916 in France. His number was 1828 and he was born in Easton Birmingham in Warwickshire. At the time of his death he commanding officer was A.A. MILNE of Winnie the pooh fame. I’ve looked everywhere for one but have been unsuccessful. I’ve even been to the Royal Warwick’s but to no avail. Thanks Mr Pargetter
Thankyou for contacting Birmingham Pals. I am sorry it has taken a while to respond to your request for information on B H Mitchel. I have done a search on all the information we hold, or have access to, and I have not been able to find any information on him.
You will notice that the Birmingham Pals website is undergoing extensive revision. I am currently going through all the requests we have had over the years for information and making them more accessible to the general public so that if someone out there does recognise a name they can contact the interested party more easily.
You will see your request at http://www.birminghampals.co.uk/notes-and-queries-2/
If you don’t wish this information to be shared in this way please let us know and we will remove it.
You mention above that his Commanding Officer was AA Milne. Is this correct. According to Wikepeadia “Milne joined the British Army in World War I and served as an officer in the Royal Warwickshire Regiment and later, after a debilitating illness, the Royal Corps of Signals. He was commissioned into the 4th Battalion, Royal Warwickshire Regiment on 17 February 1915 as a second lieutenant (on probation).[7] His commission was confirmed on 20 December 1915.[8] On 7 July 1916, he was injured while serving in the Battle of the Somme and invalided back to England. Having recuperated, he was recruited into Military Intelligence to write propaganda articles for MI 7b between 1916 and 1918.[9] He was discharged on 14 February 1919,[10] and settled in Mallord Street, Chelsea.[11] He relinquished his commission on 19 February 1920, retaining the rank of lieutenant.[12]
I do know that Milne’s brother served in the Royal Warwicks and there is information about him on the Birmingham History Forum see https://birminghamhistory.co.uk/forum. You will need to register to get access to this information which is in the section under “Birmingham Pals’. Sorry I can’t be more helpful. P. Barnes